What do non-Muslims want?

One Law For All Campaign

This focuses on the UK. In the absence of a survey, I'm extrapolating from personal wishes and those of moderate people I know.

We want to coexist peacefully with Muslims in our communities. And we want confidence that this is a lasting condition.

Another way of expressing this is:

We want Muslims to act on the basis that Islam is a hobby, deserving no rights or privileges or special considerations other than those available to other hobbies.

(These views are probably opposed by less moderate people on both "sides", many of whom want an aggressive, isolationist, policy).

 

These are examples of what non-Muslims typically do want.

Positive moves

Encouraging signs

Revised immigration policy

These are a subset of examples of what non-Muslims typically don't want.

There are lots more examples here

Violence and attempts at it

Incitement - hatred & violence

Barbaric practices

Opposition to Human Rights

"Playing the game"

Political Correctness

Creeping Islamisation

Denial & diversion

Future problems

Summary of topics

Other pages on this web site are critical of Islam, including criticism of the behaviour of some Muslims in the UK. The aim of this page is to provide a scenario for successful coexistence to help evaluate any proposals to improve relationships.

Each subsection in this summary of topics is expanded as a full section in the rest of the page. Then some of the sub-headings in those full sections are repeated in the panel on the right hand side of the page, where news reports provide examples of what non-Muslims typically don't want. (Probably many Muslims don't want these either, but that is not the point of this page).

Integration not multiculturalism

Multiculturalism has been a serious mistake. The aim should be integration, comprising at least two (preferably more) of the following:

  • able to speak English
  • geographical dispersal
  • inter-trading with other groups
  • inter-partnering & inter-marriage

Adherence to law and enlightened values

Adherence to the law is an obvious requirement and shouldn't need expansion here.

"Enlightenment values" are attitudes that arose in the "Age of Enlightenment", and that have continued to evolve since then. They include Universal Human Rights. Islam "in its natural state" lacks these enlightenment values, and it is incompatible with Universal Human Rights.

No creeping Islamisation

"Islamisation" is the ongoing agitation for so-called "religious rights" of Muslims, where these are incompatible with the rights of other citizens, or provide extra privileges to Muslims that can validly be considered unfair.

An important distinction is between "private rights" exercised among consenting Muslim adults in private, and privileges that reduce the rights of non-Muslims and impose costs and constraints on society.

Evidence of a better future

Non-Muslims have seen plenty of evidence that the current nature of the presence of Islam in the UK is unacceptable for the future. Evidence is needed that things will improve, and remain improved.

This not only needs positive actions to improve matters, but also an end to the denials and evasions that demonstrate that improvement is not genuinely on the agenda.

Immigration conforming to this scenario

Immigration that achieves the above could be good for the UK. Immigration that doesn't conform to the above will certainly be harmful to the UK, and the losers will be:

  • many non-Muslims citizens
  • many existing Muslim citizens
  • the new immigrants themselves

Integration not multiculturalism

Multiculturalism has been a serious mistake for all groups, especially Muslims. We want to see such groups integrated, not isolated. The target should be integration, comprising at least two (preferably more) of the following, including the first:

Able to speak English

Lack of English imposes a translation cost on government services, inhibits employment which adds further burden on taxes, increases suspicion (both ways), and tends to disenfranchise people. In fact, generous provision of translation services is supporting ghettoisation by removing the motivation to learn English, and should be restricted to emergencies involving visitors and recent immigrants.

Lack of English often primarily affects women, increasing the bias against women which is one of the more objectionable features of Islam.

Geographical dispersal

No fixed principle is provided here, but areas where schools take mostly children from Muslim families are an obvious concern, as are "no-go" areas.

Inter-trading with other groups

This is perhaps one of the most visible success stories of some earlier immigrant populations. People who are trading with one another have reasons not to be in conflict with one another. And there are obvious benefits from having employment and not being a burden on the state.

Inter-partnering & inter-marriage

Given Islamic "laws", this is problematic. But it illustrates the attitude that many Muslims have towards non-Muslims.

Adherence to law and enlightened values

Here are major problems that need to be eliminated:

Violence and attempts at it

We wish we rarely saw evidence in our media of violence in the UK committed in the name of Islam, or evidence of attempts or conspiracies to commit violence in the UK in the name of Islam.

One report said: "most terrorists are unremarkable and live normal lives within their communities.... Those over 30 are just as likely to have a wife and children as to be loners with no ties.... women are often aware of their husband's and sons activities but do nothing to stop them".

Incitement - hatred & violence

We wish that we rarely saw evidence in our media of incitement of hatred and/or violence by Muslims (anywhere) towards UK non-Muslims.

There appears to be no end in sight to this problem.

Barbaric practices

We wish we rarely saw evidence in our media of obscene practices in the UK such as FGM (Female Genital Mutilation), Forced Marriage, and Honour [sic] Killings.

Some of these practices are not dictated by the foundational texts of Islam. These are cultural practices, one or all of which are committed especially by a minority of Muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and parts of Africa. But these are often associated with Muslims, and it is likely that comprehensive condemnation by all Muslim communities would dramatically reduce the incidence. Sometimes Muslims are led to believe these are aspects of Islam.

But it appears that Islam can be interpreted as accepting Honour Killings. See:

It is unlikely that any of these practices would be tolerated within a society whose religion gave females the same rights as men. Islam establishes a climate where men tend to be in control and women are viewed as having fewer rights. Young-age marriage is permitted in some Islamic states because Muhammad did it. There are reports that it happens in the UK.

In general, Muslims should clearly support Universal Human Rights rather than seeing so-called "Islamic Human Rights" (which are not human rights at all) as an acceptable or even desired alternative.

Education

We wish that all Muslims were taught real science, especially evolution, and not Creationism.

No creeping Islamisation

Islamisation occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called "religious rights", where these are incompatible with the rights of other citizens, or provide extra privileges to Muslims that can validly be considered unfair.

Opposition to Human Rights

One unacceptable aspect of creeping Islamisation is the gradual erosion of Universal Human Rights, both of Muslims and non-Muslims. Islam is inherently incompatible with Universal Human Rights, and also incompatible with equality laws in the UK. (This is a problem with other religions too, but Islam is by far the worst).

Violence and threats of violence by Muslims, (and also Political Correctness by others), are forcing self-censorship and other types of self-denial of established freedoms. Obvious cases include Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses", the Muhammad cartoons, Sherry Jones" "The Jewel of Medina", etc.

Islam leads to incomprehension by many Muslims about Human Rights. But the problem goes deeper - Muslims simply do not have the right to make rules that non-Muslims need to follow. The proper answer to Anjem Choudhary, who said (about The Jewel of Medina) "It is clearly stipulated in Muslim law that any kind of attack on his honour carries the death penalty", is "We are not Muslims - those rules don't apply to us". It shouldn't even be necessary to invoke "Human Rights".

But this is not just about the loss of the human rights of non-Muslims. Enlightened non-Muslims in the UK typically care about the human rights of all citizens of the UK, including the human rights of Muslims themselves. These are eroded by Islamisation.

"Playing the game"

We wish we rarely saw evidence in our media of UK Muslims "playing the game" by exploiting their religious characteristics in ways that exploit the rest of us. Examples include:

Political Correctness

This is a problem on both sides. Typically a non-Muslim official implements a policy on the assumption that it is necessary to avoid offending Muslims, without bothering to check whether Muslims care. Often they don't, and probably resent the the fact that they have been shown in a bad light.

But behind the official's assumption is the fact that some Muslims do sometimes over-react, sometimes violently. (There are many examples across the world). That has created a climate of uncertainty, leading to policies to play safe.

Creeping Islamisation

Extracts from an analysis by Dr. Peter Hammond: the following text, which asserts a sequence of problems that are incompatible with what non-Muslims want, is extracted from:

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

[snip]

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. (United States ).

[snip]

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world. When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

[snip]

Evidence of a better future

We wish we had confidence that UK Muslims as a whole were committed to these improvements. Most of all, we wish we had confidence that the above improvements, if achieved, would continue!

Denial & diversion

When trouble arises, there is too much denial, such as "that isn't the true nature of Islam". Yet typically the trouble-makers come from Muslim communities and self-identify as Muslims. Comparison with Islam as practised across the world shows that this really is the true nature of Islam.

There is too much diversion and distraction away from the responsibilities of UK Citizenship, such as "these are provoked by actions against Muslims in other parts of the world. We don't want excuses, we want these problems to go away in the UK!

Future problems

There is no reason to expect these desired conditions to happen, and remain in force in future, if the following continue:

Immigration conforming to this scenario

This section isn't an argument about immigration in general, for example whether it should be matched to availability of houses and jobs, or whether there should be a balance between emigration and immigration. It is concerned with people rather than statistics.

The UK cannot control immigration from the rest of the EU, but most significant immigration in future is expected to be from outside the EU, and so can be controlled.

UK has benefited from immigration in the past. But the benefits arise when there has subsequently been either simple integration of a peer group, or a synergy that makes the whole better than the parts.

So far the overall effect of Muslim immigration has been neither integration nor synergy. It has resulted in significant multiculturalism and, on balance, sufficient conflict to adversely impact the lives of many Muslims and many non-Muslims. Probably no one believes the result so far is satisfactory.

Therefore, in addition to policies for improving relationships with Muslims already present, further immigration must be constrained to achieve the aims of coexistence from the start. Obvious requirements include the ability to speak English, and the education and qualifications for successful employment. This should take into account the reasons the people concerned want to immigrate, including their intentions about citizenship. Perhaps restrictions needed for the immigration of Muslims are applicable to all groups, which would avoid discrimination.

Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain - Manifesto

This manifesto, quoted below, acts as a good model for religious communities in general, and UK Muslims in particular.

Taking the lead from the Central Council of Ex-Muslims in Germany, we demand:

  1. Universal rights and equal citizenship for all. We are opposed to cultural relativism and the tolerance of inhuman beliefs, discrimination and abuse in the name of respecting religion or culture.
  2. Freedom to criticise religion. Prohibition of restrictions on unconditional freedom of criticism and expression using so-called religious 'sanctities'.
  3. Freedom of religion and atheism.
  4. Separation of religion from the state and legal and educational system.
  5. Prohibition of religious customs, rules, ceremonies or activities that are incompatible with or infringe people's rights and freedoms.
  6. Abolition of all restrictive and repressive cultural and religious customs which hinder and contradict woman's independence, free will and equality. Prohibition of segregation of sexes.
  7. Prohibition of interference by any authority, family members or relatives, or official authorities in the private lives of women and men and their personal, emotional and sexual relationships and sexuality.
  8. Protection of children from manipulation and abuse by religion and religious institutions.
  9. Prohibition of any kind of financial, material or moral support by the state or state institutions to religion and religious activities and institutions.
  10. Prohibition of all forms of religious intimidation and threats.

British Muslims for Secular Democracy - Aims

This organisation identifies two aims, one good and one not so good:

Raise awareness within British Muslims and the wider public, of democracy particularly 'secular democracy' helping to contribute to a shared vision of citizenship (the separation of faith and state, so faiths exert no undue influence on policies and there is a shared public space).

That is a very good aim, much needed by Christians and others as well as Muslims.

Encourage religious understanding and harmony, respect for different systems of beliefs, and encourage an understanding and celebration of the variety of Muslim cultures, values and traditions which are present in British society.

The not-so-good part is "... respect for different systems of beliefs ...". Islam itself is toxic, and doesn't deserve respect. Neither do the supernatural and/or divisive aspects of any religion.

Discussion

I'm uncomfortable with this page. Being critical of Islam itself is OK. "In its natural state" it is currently at best medieval, and at worst intolerant and barbaric. Islam is based on unenlightened 7th Century values.

But this page discusses a particular group of Muslims, (those in the UK). The implication is that they have to be singled out for analysis. Unfortunately, the panel on the right hand side of this page shows that many muslims pose unique problems for non-Muslims, and there appears to be no way of predicting which in advance.

For other UK subgroups identified by previous immigration, the topics on this page would be uncontroversial, and probably mostly obvious. The same probably applies to many Muslims too. But it certainly doesn't to all, and the roots of the problems lie with Islam itself.

We don't just want to be assured that many UK Muslims behave peacefully. We already knew that. We want the all-too-visible problems caused by Islam in the UK to go away!